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Post by garrett on Dec 5, 2011 10:46:38 GMT -5
well we have genetics coming from all over the world.lol chinese crabapple,european crabapple,siberian crabapple,prarie fire seeds [yes i know they won't come true smiles] and an ollllllllld strain from maine. will stratify these and plant em out in pots in late feb or early march once frost danger is past. found a lady in ireland on an older forum thread doing this small scale with native varieties. will my project be viable? what will it produce? well it will be highly amusing if nothing else. a crabapple tree farm on the texas coast.smiles figuring 7-8 years to see how they do? ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2011 16:27:32 GMT -5
Crabs are fairly forgiving. They do bloom profusely.
If you are good forager apple-crabs were breed out to meet late 19th century desire for smaller ornamental candied apple production, They often get lumped in with crabs (which is only partly true).
Still crab apple makes one heck of a spring time show, they and plums were a springtime hit in japan. Enough so (that) there are hereditary rights to sit in specific parts of parks there while the whole mess is in bloom. As coveted as some football season passes...
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Post by garrett on Dec 17, 2011 3:33:28 GMT -5
the more i read about grafting?the more using cultivated rootstocks scares me. i was reading about an osu grafting experiment using m-stock. bud graft abortion was very high.disease suseptibility was high.they mentioned hypersensitivity to diseases.sort of a perfect storm of dead end genetics predicated by no disease tolerance.they mentioned prarie fire as least effected.perhaps as its a newer cultivar? i struggle with trying to absord 300 years or so of grafting/growing knowladge. it seems that many orchards are changing rootstocks yet aagain in their grafting? and that it seems to me that the industry does so every 50-75 years or so? as a new threat occurs.fireblight,cottonwood rot...ect ect.
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Post by garrett on Dec 17, 2011 3:41:00 GMT -5
for my purposes? the imported unknown genetics of my un globetrotting seeds collections have more potential upside. i may have to wait several years.....but most of the cultivars i have seeds for are wild unnamed varients. lots of possible duds or possible successes. a numbers game to be sure.hence the massive plant out. i believe we have to head out of the entire known cultivar grafted group gene pool in order to discover more disease resistant more vigorous trees. i still struggle with spacing requirements. there is recommended spacing but several stories of home gardeners getting away with tighter plantings? i found an article tonight that suggests tighter plantings will result in a dwarfing effect for the trees and more fruit production?u can go against the grain so to speak and prune in the summer to obtain smaller trees. that pruning in the winter is to spur spring growth. that yo
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Post by garrett on Dec 17, 2011 3:48:11 GMT -5
i am ammending my plans daily.i have been an amateur gardener for a few years.but this project facinates me. as i looked at pots this week i realize given the unknown possible failure of the project? that buying 700-1000 2-5 gallon pots is cost prohibitive,and unattainable at this time. so i must revamp and regroup. i have seen pics of 7-8 inch seedling trees in 4 inch pots.that is about the minimum i would want to plant size wise.so i am going to treat my trees as if they were tomato plants. i will start them in pots.grow them to 7 inches or so and transplant directly to the garden/orchard. as i am playinng a numbers game? i believe i will get at least 1/4 of these through the first few years.i can cull any runts dogs ect and select for growth traits ect....... whatever i wake up and decide to do.trees will be dedicated to where they are planted.
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Post by garrett on Dec 17, 2011 3:54:21 GMT -5
how to seleect? what to select for?initially growth traits.disease resistance.a biiiiig one for us here is drought tolerance.then we have the whole ball of fruit production issues. will tree x1 unknown get enough chill hours to make fruit? how big a fruit?colors and characteristics? taste?when do they bloom set fruit ect? everything here is unknown. certain trees follow trends.but nothing carved in stone.
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Post by garrett on Dec 17, 2011 4:00:34 GMT -5
we have strains from china......crab and fuji descendents...allegedly....smiles siberian crab.....european crab.......wild crabs from maine....... and some prariefire crosses....lol all this variability will be in play and potentially cross pollinating each other as happy bees fly around punch drunk at their newly discovered wealth. i still have to figure out where to put the other peaches,pawpaw,pear,plums....ect......rotfl possibly my swan song or epitat.unknown. its all unknown potential. or an abysmal failure waiting to happen. but i must undertake this journey for some reason.i feel compelled. i couldn't do it conventionally at 25-30.00 a pop for grafted. so we began looking at seeds as an alternative. the road less travelled is full of mystery and excitement.lol
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Post by garrett on Dec 17, 2011 4:07:05 GMT -5
i think as this all unfolds over the next ten years or so? it will resemble a semi-wild forest look vs a commercial orchard. plenty for me to enjoy.be amazed at or curse.smiles. i have about 100.00 invested in seeds.that's all. that would be 3-4 grafted trees around here.smiles i guess its all in what you want to do....... i should get at least a few trees outta this...lol some of the folks at work ask me if i might sell some in 2 years or so.....? i dunno...... not my goal.there are all me precious.smiles
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2011 11:53:49 GMT -5
How far (apart) do I plant trees? And can I step over (the expence of) making a potted nursery?
On the upside some seedling trees can be teased from a germinating pan and set out into a trench, to feild for a year or three. Um hazel nut comes first to my mind. its a thicket understory tree left to grow wild. The "winners" in the size race will stand out for early planting on 10 foot centers. I'd lump in crab apple and prunus in here too.
Tap-root dominant trees like chestnut or the hickories-pecan need a one gallon or bigger pot, and plant out on a 40 by 40 foot spacing. *PITA trees like pawpaw need their own pot.
As you make mental or paper maps; leave aisle-ways wide enough to drive something through the orchard. If you think a thousand buckets is big. A thousand yards of bark mulch is really big.
Can you sell trees you have started? You betcha. Will you get rich? Probably not.
*PITA = Pain In The Asterisk
Just as an aside, starting a little slower, might prove to be a less herculean task.
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Post by garrett on Dec 22, 2011 10:54:15 GMT -5
pawpaw has its own pot.smiles.... i think i might be seeing a lil citrus tree in greenhouse pot today.time will tell.it's tiiiiiiny.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2011 23:35:03 GMT -5
Now, me, speaking just about myself. I wanted several things from crab apple. Trunks with 'motion' (curves-bends). Red leaves. Interesting colors when in bloom. Really tiny fruit.
Most of my trees went to field for four to seven years, and only after I had good trunk flair (nebari--trunk at soil line) would I start coppicing them short.
The first year I would cut some of the roots but leave tree to field, Cut top of the tree down to between head and waste tall.
I would repeat yearly till I had good motion and interesting leaders I could haven take down the crown some yearly. Each year I also cut some of the roots. Eventualy I had a tree with a fairly small root-mass and were ready to go into a five gallon pail with large drain holes.
The next year clean up (sculpt) some of the wounds and repot to a two-and-a-half gallon pot. A crab with a trunk that is ankle thick at the soil line with some interesting motion is about a $ 100 tree to a bonsai peddler. A crab of that size in bloom left at the peddlers door with your address on it, that doesn't get him up off his dufus, is a dealer not worth your time.
Don't worry he'll be out of business soon.
A japan (bloodgood) maple of that size is about a $ 300 tree... Bloodgood seedlings should start waking up in your neck of the world ina month or so... And are concidered weeds to most landscapers...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2011 23:38:50 GMT -5
Learning how to prune and dig up bald cypress will take you a few years to master.
Bald cypress (taxodium) is the 'other' deciduous north american conifer...
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Post by garrett on Jan 5, 2012 0:24:25 GMT -5
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.thanks copp.
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